MPS and Piezography 2 black ink changes required?

inks
piezography

#1

Dana, Walker, Kelly, Jon
I was reading an article that Jon posted in 2012 about Piezography 2. Here is the link to the article


It states that for the MPS and for the Piezography 2 systems that black ink changes were not needed to print on mat or glossy papers as long as you were using the correct curve. I have always changed the black ink setting via the menu on my 3880 when changing paper types. Have I been missing something? I get to waste ink every change and yet the article appears to say that there will no longer be ink wastage.
Please help me understand how to select the correct curve so I no longer waste ink on black changes.
I am using the Warm Neutral
Thanks
Bob


#2

If you’re using P2 in a 3880, then the P2 curves for matte papers use the black channel for matte shade 1 but the glossy curves use the yellow channel for glossy shade 1. You can see this by looking at a matte curve in QTR curve view and then looking at a glossy curve. This is possible because P2 doesn’t use shade 7, which would otherwise go in the yellow slot. So with P2 you don’t ever do the MK/PK switch, and it’s probably a good idea to put a cart with flush solution in the PK position. If you have your printer set up for K7 but you’re printing with P2 curves then your matte prints would look fine but your glossy prints would look decidedly odd.

In my view P2 is by far the most sensible way to run Piezo in a 3880, as it lightens the maintenance burden, lowers ink wastage and means that there’s no delay in switching between printing on a matte paper and a glossy paper. I understand that this is how IJM runs their 3880s for their Piezo workshops.


#3

Brian
Thanks for your reply and clearing up my muddle.
I am set up for K7 and am using K7 curves. Do you know or can you point me to info on how to change from K7 to K6 and then where all the profiles are for K6. I took the workshop last summer and P2 was never addressed and the manual only showed the K7 setup for the 3880.
Thanks again
Bob


#4

http://www.inkjetmall.com/tech/content.php?171-Piezography-K7-P2-and-Digital-Negative-Curves-and-Ink-Placement-Charts

Downloads:

A new Piezography installer is coming that will include a few more P2 curves as well along with more goodies.

Best,
Walker


#5

In the past, IJM has subtly discouraged people from using P2 in a 3880 because it was argued that it’s not needed. You really need P2 in printers where it’s hard to change between PK and MK. In some of the older large format printers (7600?), there was only one black installed at a time, and so a switch between blacks wasted a lot of ink as the ink line and damper had to be flushed with the new black. It’s certainly the case that the 3880 is not in that position - you can switch between MK and PK much more easily. So in that sense it’s not needed. Which is why there aren’t instructions on how to convert a 3880 to P2. However my previous comments still apply, i.e. while strictly speaking P2 is not needed, it’s a much easier and simpler and more efficient way to run the printer. There’s a thread here from another user who ran K7 in a 3880 and found the maintenance burden a bit large for his style of printing. P2 would have reduced those problems to more manageable levels.

To do the switch you’d need to put a cart with glossy shade 1 in the Yellow slot in place of the existing cart with shade 7. I haven’t done this switch myself, but I [I]think[/I] you could use your current PK cart and swap the chips over. You’d then need to put something in the PK slot. You could probably put the shade 7 Y cart in there with the chips from the PK cart, but a fresh cart with flush would be better. Once the inks are in the right slot, you then need to get the glossy shade 1 ink to the print head. Either you do two or three power cleans, which is guaranteed to waste a lot of ink from all channels, and fill the maintenance tank, or you print a lot of purge patterns using just that channel, which is possible using QTR Calibration Mode. Getting the ink to the head is the hard part.


#6

[QUOTE=Brian_S;11109]Either you do two or three power cleans, which is guaranteed to waste a lot of ink from all channels, and fill the maintenance tank, or you print a lot of purge patterns using just that channel, which is possible using QTR Calibration Mode. Getting the ink to the head is the hard part.[/QUOTE]

On the 3880 the Purge pages work pretty well. I think each 13x19 sheet at 100% used about 3.5ml of ink. So not too many pages are needed to clear the line. I was trying to flush the yellow stain out, but you would be adding black, so my guess is once you see black ink you would be done.


#7

I guess so. You’d want to be sure that it’s well and truly through. The thing with these ink lines and dampers printers is that the dampers can trap small quantities of the old ink and release it slowly over time, This is an issue in a colour -> K7 conversion, as shade 7 is in the yellow channel and any occasional residual staining is fairly obvious. The longer that a printer has been in use for colour, the more this is an issue. For a colour -> P2 conversion, you’d think that this wouldn’t be seen with shade 1 in that slot, and many Piezo curves use little or no shade 1 anyway, but not having done this conversion myself I can’t say. In principle, the same issue applies to all the channels in a colour -> K7 or P2 conversion, which is why people often flush the system first with Piezoflush, and perhaps let it sit there for a while, but it sounds like you’ve started with Piezo inks already, so you may as well persist with that and see how it goes.


#8

Walker, Brian and LGebhardt,
Thanks for the additional info.
I have also located the P2 curves by following a couple of links from Walker in a previous post - PROBLEM - my most used paper is Canson Baryta - there is a P2 curve for it for all the inksets except WN which is my inkset. I checked each of the P2 curves for Canson Baryta for each of the inksets and they are all different so I can’t substitute one from a different inkset.

Walker, since there is a Canson Baryta P2 curve for each of the other inksets you must have created one for WN. Is it possible to receive that curve? I would really be burned if I had to spend a $100 US for a curve that probably should have been included. Also for exhibitions and galleries I have started using Canson Platine for my colour work - is a WN P2 curve available for that paper as it is a cut above the baryta. I realize you said in your post above that “A new Piezography installer is coming that will include a few more P2 curves as well along with more goodies.” Is it possible to give us an ETA and would the two curves I need been included?
Thanks so much
Bob


#9

There are eleven supported papers and five supported inksets for P2, which should mean 55 curves. I checked both the website download and the forthcoming Piezography installer, and there are only 54. It’s an odd omission. Seems that you’re unlucky. Do you have an i1 measurement device, one that can create paper profiles as well as calibrate the monitor? If you do, then there are ways to deal with this gap if IJM aren’t able to quickly fill it. You’d probably be able to do something for Platine using the same technique.


#10

I’m currently unable to fulfill it because I’m in Maine R&Ding PiezoDN for ziatype, gum, salt, and cyanotype.

Next week is teaching all week. :frowning: I’m sorry,
Walker


#11

Walker and BrianS
Thanks for your reply.
I don’t have an i1. I have two NECs with Spectraview and also a Colormunki photo that I used before the NECs. The ColorMunki does an ok but not great job for printer profiles when I need something in a hurry. I haven’t found any info in QTR or Piezography that provides guidance on using the ColorMunki for use with piezogography. If I have missed it please point me to it as I would love to try.

Walker - Obviously I am not desperate and my K7 printing is working perfectly. I need only my Canson Rag WN curve for the next several days but I do have several jobs requiring the WN curve for Canson Baryta that I can delay towards the end of the the month but then it means another costly switch back to matte black. Of course I could switch out the blacks but it would sure be nice to not have to and to save some money at the same time. Also if you could produce a WN P2 curve for Canson Platine Rag I would be very appreciative.

Thanks again
Bob


#12

I will soon be publishing targets and tools for diy linearization with ColorMunki.

best,
Walker


#13

The way I understand it regarding Colormunki and i1 is that Colormunki can approach the i1 results if you do enough remeasurements or iterations. The i1 gets it right with one set of measurements.

Walker, is the Colormunki only going to give okay results when compared to the i1 for relinearization? I, too, have searched and asked about the Colormunki with regards to relinearization and piezography. I’ve never received a good answer, presumably because it seems that most using piezography get the i1 anyway.


#14

[QUOTE=walkerblackwell;11120]I will soon be publishing targets and tools for diy linearization with ColorMunki.

best,
Walker[/QUOTE]

Walker
Thanks
I look forward to it
Bob


#15

Bob, assuming that you’re still running K7 (I’ve lost track), then surely in your position you’d be better off sticking to K7 until the missing gaps can be plugged one way or another. The wastage from a swap to PK and back is likely to be a fair bit less than a swap to P2 and back to K7 and then finally back to P2. With K7, having to do a swap or two while you wait for missing curves or Munki instructions would be no bad thing - it’s precisely what you have to do on a reasonably regular basis in order to maintain a K7 system, and why P2 makes so much sense.

If IJM were to publish instructions and tools for linearisation using a Munki, that would be a big help to a lot of people. A Munki is more affordable than an I1. The Cooper instructions on using an Munki with QTR are not all that easy to follow.


#16

Brian
Thanks for that.
I had pretty much decided the same course, however, being impatient I wanted everything now. What you suggest, of course, makes sense.
Interestingly, just about a six weeks ago I remembered reading some of Keith Cooper’s reviews of the ColorMunki and followed the link to his discussion of using the CM for a 21 step ramp for Piezography/QTR. He provided the different order of the ramp readings and it all looked doable. A road trip to San Francisco, business and a forgetful mind intervened. Now that your post jogged my memory I will go back and review Keith’s info. It will at least make me more familiar with what IJM and Walker are going to put out. I just hope that they make a general announcement rather than squirreling it away in some corner of the forums or reference it in some obscure post which has often been the past practise. I realize that over the last few months Walker and Dana have been working to consolidate articles and info in ways that some of it is easier to find and understand. It is still amazing how difficult it can be finding some things or getting a proper answer on the forums - it is improving and I think many are thankful for that. I truly appreciate your insights and reasoned advice.
Thanks again
Bob


#17

[QUOTE=rjh1007;11124]I just hope that they make a general announcement rather than squirreling it away in some corner of the forums or reference it in some obscure post which has often been the past practise.[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes:


#18

After I’m done there will be no corners.

Don’t worry, this Piezography package will be the default place for people to start and will be posted widely.


#19

Walker
Thank you
Bob


#20

Walker, BrianS
Please let me expand the conversation just a bit.
Last August when I attended the Piezography workshop at Topsham both Jon and Dana mentioned they were close to rolling out a system that would accommodate two inksets within one printer. This would allow possible blending or switching between inksets within one printer and without the need to purge the ink channels. Did I understand them correctly? If so where are you at with this and would it work on my trusty 3880’s.
I love the WN inkset, however, there have been a number of times when I wanted just a neutral print or alternatively special edition.
Thanks
Bob