3880, Neutral K7 inks and persistent color cast


#1

A few days ago I installed a set of Neutral K7 inks in a new and very sparingly used Epson3880 printer (about 5 pages of color prints). With phone support I got the printer to print correctly. My system is a Mac running OS10.10.5, QuadtoneRIP version 2.7.6 and I print using Printtool v.1.1.0

The printer was flushed using Piezoflush 3 cycles for each of the black inks. Since I’m using a Mac, I don’t think there’s a utility to perform an initial fill cycle.

After the K7 inks were installed I did a nozzle check and it all seemed good.

Now, when I printed a b&w (grayscale, graygamma2.2)image on Hahnemuhle PhotoRag I noticed there to be a mild color cast in the highlights and lighter midtone areas. The cast looked a little yellowish or may be light selenium. I did another Powerclean (matte black ink was the active cartridge), and that didn’t seem to make a difference.

Is there something I can do to eliminate the cast.

Attached is an image of the test print. The image files were were a b&w test image from inkjetmall.com (proofofpiezography-21.tif) and another from NorthlightImages.

I also printed the same images on an Epson7900 printer using ABW mode, I don’t see a cast on that print.


#2

Yellow is really hard to get rid of. If you dig around you will find it mentioned in quite a few posts. Here’s one: http://www.inkjetmall.com/tech/showthread.php?1865-Re-occuring-staining-in-yellow-ight-magenta-channels&highlight=yellow


#3

Thank you for the link. I’ve done two more cleanings and printed a InkPatternPage using Calibration Mode, the mild yellow doesn’t seem to go away.
Any other suggestions?

[QUOTE=Jeffg53;9057]Yellow is really hard to get rid of. If you dig around you will find it mentioned in quite a few posts. Here’s one: http://www.inkjetmall.com/tech/showthread.php?1865-Re-occuring-staining-in-yellow-ight-magenta-channels&highlight=yellow[/QUOTE]


#4

I found much the same with the yellow, and some residual magenta too when I put the K7 into a 3880. The tint didn’t leave until the second batch of inks were installed, and even now I sometimes will get a tint of yellow that is objectionable. That is one creepy color to get rid of. However, some of it can be altered by switching the paper to a cooler or one with optical brightners to add a bluish tint (Which is another can of worms with longevity.).

I went to the K7 Selenium over the Neutral K7 as I prefer a cooler tint than the yellow I saw in the Mall’s website images. Still, it is often too yellowish for me over what I used to get with my old Kodak Selenium chemical baths which had a bit of purplish tint. Guess I’ll have to live with it now, or figure out a way to add some tint to the K7 Selenium inks. Seems to be more of an issue with the lighter to mid-tones much as you found. In the Dmax blacks, it’s hard to tell.

Sadly, I now find when I do B&W I resort to leaving the image in Adobe 1998 RGB and printing it on the color pigment printer as I can control the tint of the B&W on that printer to what I want. I can add a bit of cooler tint in the lighter curves layers of the RGB image and be done with it rather than a fixed and locked tint of the K7. Changing papers isn’t as much of a problem either as I can re-tint with the pigment and the image’s curves. Funny how a little added color like yellow can throw an image off.

I do like the Gloss Optimizer of the K7 and wish Epson had that choice rather than the wasteful MK/PK black ink switch. My PK is now blocked for some reason on a recent changeover. Yay Epson! :o(

Good luck though.

Mack


#5

follow the instructions in this article:
http://www.inkjetmall.com/tech/content.php?166-Flush-individual-channel-using-QTR-Calibration-Mode
and keep printing the yellow channel on photocopier paper until the yellow clears. You should expect to have to print more than a few pages, but you are only using the yellow ink.
Have patience and keep at it.
John


#6

I don’t own a 3880 running piezo, but based on what I’ve read here, if I was to convert one running colour ink to piezo, I think I’d replace the dampers and as much of the ink supply system as possible.


#7

I used PiezoFlush in all cartridge slots for the second time today. I’ll install the Neutral K7 cartridges tomorrow and see if that has resolved the problem.

When I don’t need to tone the image I’ve gotten good results with Epson’s ABW mode on my 3880 and 9900 printers. Like you, and grudgingly, when I need to tone an image I resort to leaving the image as RGB and print them. I was hoping to find a good solution with the Neutral K7 inks and it’s been rather frustrating. I prefer not switch papers with cooler tones to neutralize the cast.

[QUOTE=Mack;9059]I found much the same with the yellow, and some residual magenta too when I put the K7 into a 3880. The tint didn’t leave until the second batch of inks were installed, and even now I sometimes will get a tint of yellow that is objectionable. That is one creepy color to get rid of. However, some of it can be altered by switching the paper to a cooler or one with optical brightners to add a bluish tint (Which is another can of worms with longevity.).

I went to the K7 Selenium over the Neutral K7 as I prefer a cooler tint than the yellow I saw in the Mall’s website images. Still, it is often too yellowish for me over what I used to get with my old Kodak Selenium chemical baths which had a bit of purplish tint. Guess I’ll have to live with it now, or figure out a way to add some tint to the K7 Selenium inks. Seems to be more of an issue with the lighter to mid-tones much as you found. In the Dmax blacks, it’s hard to tell.

Sadly, I now find when I do B&W I resort to leaving the image in Adobe 1998 RGB and printing it on the color pigment printer as I can control the tint of the B&W on that printer to what I want. I can add a bit of cooler tint in the lighter curves layers of the RGB image and be done with it rather than a fixed and locked tint of the K7. Changing papers isn’t as much of a problem either as I can re-tint with the pigment and the image’s curves. Funny how a little added color like yellow can throw an image off.

I do like the Gloss Optimizer of the K7 and wish Epson had that choice rather than the wasteful MK/PK black ink switch. My PK is now blocked for some reason on a recent changeover. Yay Epson! :o(

Good luck though.

Mack[/QUOTE]


#8

Thank you for the suggestion. I repeated this process several time and the yellow cast still seems persistent.

[QUOTE=jgbowen;9060]follow the instructions in this article:
http://www.inkjetmall.com/tech/content.php?166-Flush-individual-channel-using-QTR-Calibration-Mode
and keep printing the yellow channel on photocopier paper until the yellow clears. You should expect to have to print more than a few pages, but you are only using the yellow ink.
Have patience and keep at it.
John[/QUOTE]


#9

Hello rxchaos,

You mentioned that you used 3 “cycles” and I am not familiar with an Epson maintenance function called a “cycle”.

When you repeated the process - are you performing the same “cycle”? What is that?

Please write the name of cleaning function that you are selecting so that I can understand how you have attempted to flush your printer in order to rid the yellow and lt magenta pigment from the ink dampers.


#10

I should have been more clear. By “cycle” I meant “power cleaning”. With matte black selected I repeated the “power cleaning” three times, and did the same with photo black selected.

I also printed the QuadtoneRIP ink pattern page using the Calibration mode a about 3-4 times.

Just wondering if getting a new set of Neutral K7 inks and cartridges and starting all over would make a difference. I’m yet to install the Neutral K7 inks after the several power cleaning routines.

[QUOTE=jon;9065]Hello rxchaos,

You mentioned that you used 3 “cycles” and I am not familiar with an Epson maintenance function called a “cycle”.

When you repeated the process - are you performing the same “cycle”? What is that?

Please write the name of cleaning function that you are selecting so that I can understand how you have attempted to flush your printer in order to rid the yellow and lt magenta pigment from the ink dampers.[/QUOTE]


#11

[QUOTE=rxchaos;9073]I should have been more clear. By “cycle” I meant “power cleaning”. With matte black selected I repeated the “power cleaning” three times, and did the same with photo black selected.

I also printed the QuadtoneRIP ink pattern page using the Calibration mode a about 3-4 times.

Just wondering if getting a new set of Neutral K7 inks and cartridges and starting all over would make a difference. I’m yet to install the Neutral K7 inks after the several power cleaning routines.[/QUOTE]

Do you really mean to write that you are trying to remove the color cast from a Piezography installation but have not actually yet installed the Piezography inks?


#12

No.
I initially installed the Neutral K7 inks after using Piezoflush.
There was a persistent color cast
I removed the Neutral K7 ink cartridges and installed the cartridges with Piezoflush and ran the power clean routine - 3 times with the Matte black ink selected and 3 times with PhotoBlack ink selected
I am wondering if instead of putting back the Neutral K7 inks I had used whether it’d made any sense to get a new set of cartridges and a new batch of Neutral K7 inks
Hope this clarifies any confusion


#13

Yellow and magenta are persistent not from the inks but from the dampers.

The best practice is

  1. Install PiezoFlush and run 3 POWER CLEANS

  2. Run a nozzle check to confirm that the color inks have been replaced by the pink PiezoFlush and all nozzles are firing correctly.

    2a) Correct any deficiencies in 2) above and confirm that the color inks have been replaced by the pink PiezoFlush and all nozzles are firing correctly.

  3. Install fresh cartridges with Piezography inks. Do not use the PiezoFlush cartridges unless they have been thoroughly cleaned with distilled water to remove the pink dye or the cast will permanently follow.

  4. Run 3 POWER CLEANS to replace the PiezoFlush with Piezography ink.

  5. Run a nozzle check to confirm that the PiezoFlush have been replaced by the Piezography inks and all nozzles are firing correctly.

    2a) Correct any deficiencies in 2) above and confirm that the PiezoFlush have been replaced by the Piezography inks and all nozzles are firing correctly.

Did you do or see anything different from above? If so, what?


#14

Thank you for the detailed instructions. I’ve done the following two steps and everything looks good so far, i.e.

  1. I installed PiezoFlush in all slots and ran 3 power cleans
  2. I ran a nozzle check. The print indicates all color inks have been replaced with PiezoFlush and all nozzles are firing correctly.
  • Now, I don’t want to install the Neutral K7 ink filled cartridges I currently have. I’m going to order a new set of cartridges and a new set of Neutral K7 inks and install those. I’ll order the cartridges and inks later today and hopefully will have it in a few days. After I install the fresh cartridges with Piezography inks I’ll print my test images and post the results.

[QUOTE=jon;9076]Yellow and magenta are persistent not from the inks but from the dampers.

The best practice is

  1. Install PiezoFlush and run 3 POWER CLEANS

  2. Run a nozzle check to confirm that the color inks have been replaced by the pink PiezoFlush and all nozzles are firing correctly.

    2a) Correct any deficiencies in 2) above and confirm that the color inks have been replaced by the pink PiezoFlush and all nozzles are firing correctly.

  3. Install fresh cartridges with Piezography inks. Do not use the PiezoFlush cartridges unless they have been thoroughly cleaned with distilled water to remove the pink dye or the cast will permanently follow.

  4. Run 3 POWER CLEANS to replace the PiezoFlush with Piezography ink.

  5. Run a nozzle check to confirm that the PiezoFlush have been replaced by the Piezography inks and all nozzles are firing correctly.

    2a) Correct any deficiencies in 2) above and confirm that the PiezoFlush have been replaced by the Piezography inks and all nozzles are firing correctly.

Did you do or see anything different from above? If so, what?[/QUOTE]


#15

I got a new set of cartridges and new set of Neutral K7 inks and filled the cartridges.

  • Before I removed the cartridges filled with Piezoflush I did a nozzle check (with the Piezoflush cartridges installed), and all nozzles were firing correctly and there wasn’t any color stains present

  • I installed the newly filled cartridges, and ran powerclean three times as instructed. That is 3 times with Matte black ink selected and 3 times with Photo black ink selected

  • Then I ran a nozzle check and all nozzles were firing correctly, and didn’t see any stains of Piezoflush or the color inks

  • I now printed the same test image from before and compared it the same image printed on an Epson7900 in ABW mode. The print made with the newly installed Neutral K7 inks still show a yellow cast. Attached is an image of both test prints.

Any suggestions?

[QUOTE=rxchaos;9077]Thank you for the detailed instructions. I’ve done the following two steps and everything looks good so far, i.e.

  1. I installed PiezoFlush in all slots and ran 3 power cleans
  2. I ran a nozzle check. The print indicates all color inks have been replaced with PiezoFlush and all nozzles are firing correctly.
  • Now, I don’t want to install the Neutral K7 ink filled cartridges I currently have. I’m going to order a new set of cartridges and a new set of Neutral K7 inks and install those. I’ll order the cartridges and inks later today and hopefully will have it in a few days. After I install the fresh cartridges with Piezography inks I’ll print my test images and post the results.[/QUOTE]

#16

I got a new set of cartridges and new set of Neutral K7 inks and filled the cartridges.

  • Before I removed the cartridges filled with Piezoflush I did a nozzle check (with the Piezoflush cartridges installed), and all nozzles were firing correctly and there wasn’t any color stains present

  • I installed the newly filled cartridges, and ran powerclean three times as instructed. That is 3 times with Matte black ink selected and 3 times with Photo black ink selected

  • Then I ran a nozzle check and all nozzles were firing correctly, and didn’t see any stains of Piezoflush or the color inks

  • I now printed the same test image from before and compared it the same image printed on an Epson7900 in ABW mode. The print made with the newly installed Neutral K7 inks still show a yellow cast. Attached is an image of both test prints.

Any suggestions?


#17

The image didn’t get attached to the message. Here it is…




#18

Just a shot in the dark…
Is it possible the K7 Neutral ink is just plain a bit warmer than what you have in your 7900?


#19

That’s what it appears to be. Prints made with Epson ABW (on 7900) appear neutral, and K7 Neutral inks noticeably warmer. The prints are being viewed under 5000Kelvin lighting.

The K7 Neutral ink description on inkjetmall.com’s website says "The Piezography Neutral ink set is designed to be achromatic to the human visual system when printed on a very specific color of white paper. The paper we designed it on is Hahnemuhle Photo Rag. Innova Photo Smooth Cotton " I made the test prints on Epson’s Presentation Matte. Before I replaced all the K7 Neutral inks and cartridges I did make the test print on Hahnemuhle’s PhotoRag and that did appear warmer too.

Perhaps the explanation to this is on the ink’s description page where it says “Because the inks are neutral, they will pick up the tone of any paper white and shift in that direction. The inks therefore can be made to appear warmer on warmer papers and cooler on cooler papers.” That said, isn’t the Epson Presentation Matte a tad cooler that Hahnemuhle’s PhotoRag.

The K7 Neutral ink description also says “Neutral will take on a cooler cast if allowed to sit in the bottle or in the printer for long periods of time. It takes only a few seconds to gently shake and resuspend all of the carbon and color pigments again to form a uniform neutral appearance.” I did give the bottle a gentle shake before drawing ink to fill the cartridges, and did the same to the cartridges before making the print.

Are the K7 Neutral inks just warmer than Epson ABW?

[QUOTE=jgbowen;9125]Just a shot in the dark…
Is it possible the K7 Neutral ink is just plain a bit warmer than what you have in your 7900?[/QUOTE]


#20

FWIW, I’ve done a few comparisons on an OEM 3880 of ABW Neutral with QTR using the neutral curve. I can’t do the same test using K7 as I’m using Special Edition rather than Neutral inks at the moment in my piezo printer.

I found that the ABW print was perhaps a little on the cool side of neutral, whereas the QTR profile was a little warm. I got the impression that ABW may have been over-correcting for the inherent toning in the OEM three black inks, and QTR was under-correcting. Exact neutral from OEM K3 can be elusive. Why don’t you try QTR neutral on the 7900 and see how it looks? I suspect that you’ll find all three a bit different.