Brian, I’m not familiar with Lulu and whether they are experts or enthusiasts. From experience, I believe that “all these color management nerds” (as you refer to them) - their concerns are misplaced about the valves and they should be worried about pigment settlement in OEM inks. The latter is very real.
Refillable cartridges have valves that are designed for multiple insertions as are the OEM cartridges (and Epson’s stated reason for design of the Intellichip in the first place.) Refillable cartridges can last for years and years as can the chips. There are crappy cheap cartridges out there with even crappier cheap chips stuck on them. But, OEM carts are very high standard as are the carts we sell at InkjetMall and both can be removed and reinserted dozens and dozens of times.
The reason we do not list the 38XX as a P2 printer, is not because its not suitable - rather it is because it has two black carts and the user does not have to physically swap out carts. During the workshops in Santa Fe, I often run both the 3880s and the R2880s as P2 printers as a convenience to the attendees so they can print matte or photo prints without black ink changes. That is the most economical way to run Piezography. And as you say - WN1 may be a perfect black (both matte and photo). If Epson only made one black - this would be it, and their printers would not have two black slots.
Running Piezography is less costly than running Epson inks - and if someone can not afford to run the OEM inks, I can not understand why they choose to purchase a printer in the first place. Printing is costly. There is the cost of the printer, the inks, the paper. Running a printer a little costs more in terms of maintenance than running a printer a lot. You don’t buy an expensive piece of technology to let it sit. If you do let it sit for fear of spending money on consumables - then you have to deal with the maintenance issues that inactivity causes.
I appreciate what you are saying about your need to save money over employing the best practices or reaching for the highest standards. But, I advise you and others based upon my real world experience because I am Cone Editions and I have been Cone Editions now for some 35 years. There is no coincidence that my surname is Cone. I have to advise what are my best practices because I already know what happens when one doesn’t. You can choose to use lesser practices, or seek advise elsewhere, but from my experience you may end up spending more in the long run or wasting lots of valuable time and materials. You get to choose the standard which you wish to emulate. But, if we know what doesn’t work, or we know what can jury rig something for a fortnight - we don’t express those things to you as advise. That would be a disservice.
One of my teachers once said to me…“You can do it that way. Or you can do it the right way.”
Ok, I’m back, sort of. My takeout at the moment is that shaking the printer is not enough but that I need to shake the carts regularly, not the printer no matter whether I am on K7 or P2.
Will that be enough to avoid my current problem, assuming that it is settled pigment or is there possible settling in the lines to the head?
Given that I have lots of NU 1 and SEL 1, P2 may be a good idea for now but there does appear to be a dearth of curves for P2. Do you have any hidden away?
My SEL 1 came from a tiny bit of a new bottle and mainly from a now used bottle so doing a smear test isn’t apples to apples. Do you still want me to do it with the new bottle?
I will start doing the power cleans to, hopefully, get me rolling again.
Neither Brian nor I am trying to dodge using best practice. We understand that there is a cost to printing. However, in the absence of clear documentation on some aspects of the correct procedures to maintain our printers, we both muddle along. Case in point, agitation and the PK/MK switch are are not in the manual or videos. I have been shaking my printer because I read a post by Dana suggesting that it was a way to agitate the carts. No mention was made that this would not work on a 3880.
What you are arguing against is a staw man that you have set up, and then pointing out that we haven’t followed the unwritten rules. No-one is disagreeing that printers need to be used and inks need to be agitated. Rather, the real question is what is the most efficient and effective way of keeping the printer healthy? There’s nothing wrong with searching for the most efficient and least wasteful way of doing something.
Recently, you asked for feedback on documentation. After my experience, I would suggest that printer best practices would be an excellent topic.
I shook all carts, did three power cleans, printed a 21x4 target and left it overnight. I have now measured it and my 100% is now at 5.4. I’ll print an Inksep, GO it and measure it tomorrow morning.
5.4 is still quite a way from the 4.08 starting point from a couple of months ago but a vast improvement on my recent starting point.
I’ve just printed the Inksep on EEF. Here’s the score so far:
Pre GO
60% 14.61
80% 13.77
100% 13.41
Post GO
60% 14.19
80% 13.86
100% 15.05
and it still smears on the 100% patch after GO, but not as badly as before.
This whole situation is baffling, your 1st linearization shows your system to be running very dark, but your lab values are showing the SEL1 to be much lighter then it should be. Now your linearization looks A LOT better, but the Lab values are still showing the SEL1 to be very light compared to what it should be. You are also seeing the same smearing as before, just better after the shaking and cleaning cycles. This is what I would do next:
-Remove and re-install your QTR print driver & curve library and your Epson Print driver
-Shake and top off ALL the carts in your set (if they are resettable chips), run 3 cleaning cycles
-Print an ink separation using QTR calibration mode and test the L values for ALL your inks in EEF w/GO
This will give me an idea if you entire system is in line with what is should be or if something else is contributing to your wacky results. I still think there’s something funky with the SEL1 in that PK line, but as you are seeing it may be settled pigments in your line that hasn’t been worked all the out yet.
Other questions would be (because I am not familiar with your system) are:
What version OS are you using
2.What version QTR & QTR Tool are you using
3.Lot #s from all your ink bottles (this is so I can compare to the exact lot/batch)
Thanks Kelly, the plots that I am posting are on IGFS not EEF. I started off with IGFS, and have added the EEF inksep info as you requested. The last plot is after 3 power cleans.
Before I do any more, I need a little clarification.
run 3 cleaning cycles - Do you mean Power Cleans from the front panel or Head Cleans from the System Preferences? I have already done three Power Cleans over the weekend.
Print Tool 1.1.0, QTR 2.7.5. My 3880 runs as a Bonjour Airport printer.
I don’t have lot #s for the ink in the carts. I used all the ink from my first order in filling the 3880 carts after my abortive attempt to use a 2400
I am losing the will to live as far as ink changes on a 3880 are concerned. I see no point in sorting this out without some documentation on how to manage these printers. Fixing it is one thing, providing information on how to stop a reoccurrence is far more valuable. I also don’t see suggestions that I must live in a bizarre, environmentally challenged house as helpful. Jon said “You can do it that way. Or you can do it the right way.” That’s all very well for him to say that, but perhaps he could make sure that the “right way” is fully explained and documented, and insofar as the MK/PK switch is concerned, it isn’t.
I am seriously considering using a K3 printer for gloss with QTR, and sticking flush in the PK channel. The lack of a consistent and documented approach to GO amounts, and bronzing are compelling arguments to do something else.
Please understand this is NOT something we have experienced before, your situation is a unique one. We are trying to figure out the problem 1st, before we offer any solutions, you can’t fix it unless you know what’s wrong with it to begin with. I have been asking you for lab values on the EEF paper because that is the latest tests I have for SEL inks, we also test on Type5, HPR & Type2. If you have Type5 paper then I can compare to that as well. I simply need L values to figure out if your printer is printing SEL1 or NU1 inks, at this point I think it’s printing NU1 for some reason.
I asked you do to swab test on a glossy paper using the SEL1 ink from your bottle and compare to the ink from the cartridge. You can suck ink out of the cart with a needle and syringe. I need to know if this is INK OR PRINTER to determine a repair.
Kelly, I have three sheets of EEF left. I asked about IGFS because of the drama I had with EEF, or TPP as it is known in Australia. In the end we decided to walk away from that. The 100% measurement will always be crazy, and the others may be suspect. Here are the latest values:
Pre GO
60% 14.61
80% 13.77
100% 13.41
Post GO
60% 14.19
80% 13.86
100% 15.05
The ink that I am using is from the first bottle that I bought. You have built two custom curves and seen various examples from it when we were trying to solve the EEF problem. I don’t have any more of it and I have chucked the bottle. My current SEL ink may also be in there but only a tiny amount. I just can’t remember what happened at the time. I’m happy to do the smear test on the bottle and cart still but wonder whether it will tell us anything. Please let me know whether you still want me to proceed.
Now to maintenance: *Agitate ink cartridges every 1-2 weeks to maintain in-suspension pigment, and use printers at least once a week to avoid settled ink in the pro model internal ink lines and to keep the print head moist.
As you know, I shook the printer. Jon has now advised that the carts on a 3880 must be removed and shaken - update required?
I have used the printer more than weekly. How much printing is required weekly?
There is no mention that on a 3880, both PK and MK should be printed weekly - another update perhaps?
I also suspect that I may have remained blissfully unaware of this problem, if I had just printed. However, I immediately started printing targets and was presented with the problem.
I did a smear test with the PK and MK carts, and the SEL bottle. They all smear a little before GO. The bottle smears more but it is a thicker coating. The two carts hardly smear at all. I wiped them with a Q tip. I just GO’d them and will report back later.
Just to verify, the lab values you are supplying are L values, correct? What are you measuring with for a device? Can you supply me with all the LAB values, so I can compare color as well?
It is very unusual that your printer would be putting down ink onto the paper that smears off with GO applied, BUT the inks (BOTH SEL1 & NU1) when swab tested outside of the printer do NOT smear off the paper with GO applied. I am baffled at this situation to say the least. THANK YOU for doing this test for us, this REALLY helps me determine where to from here. With this simple test we have eliminated the inks as possible causes.
I don’t think that your regular practices are out of the normal, you are doing everything correctly. We don’t need to pursue that avenue any farther. You are using your printer regularly, you are agitating your carts regularly and keeping the system in working order.
Did you flush this printer prior to installing the K7 inks? I am wondering if maybe there is some residual flush looming in your system that is causing all this problem. Did you perform any initial fills after installing your K7 inks to chase the flush out???
Since I stay up later than Jeff, I can quickly clarify a couple of points.
Jeff uses an I1 Photo V2 and iProfiler.
He has used the printer regularly, but the PK line went unused for about three months.
Although he refers to “flushing” the lines, it’s my understanding that he has never put carts with piezoflush solution into this printer, well not so far. This printer never had OEM either. It started life from new as a K7 printer about six months ago and has stayed that way ever since. By “flushing”, I believe that he is referring to head cleans, power cleans and printing purge patterns in an attempt to move ink though the PK ink line, in line with the advice provided here.
Thanks Brian and Kelly. To confirm, I am using an i1Pro2 on an i1io2 table, with the latest version of i1Profiler. This printer has never had anything but K7 Neutral near it. I will print an inksep and measure it both pre and post GO and post the result. Brian and I have discussed this at length over the last little while. I have developed a theory with his help, which may be be crazy but may just have some truth. Here it is:
Settling in the lines to the head is inevitable with K7 inks. If a printer uses only MK for an extended period, then settling will happen in the PK line. The way to avoid this would be to swap and print an unknown amount weekly. I haven’t done this.
There is very little shade 1 used in any print. It only kicks in in the darkest part of an image. Most people would probably not notice the difference between where my ink was three months back, and what it is now. I happened to switch to PK and immediately printed and measured targets. What I was trying to do was linearise and build ICC profiles for different amounts of GO.
So what I am seeing is normal. That leaves the question of how to avoid it. As I see it, that would need a weekly swap of PK and MK and some printing. How much, I don’t know.
I broke out the champagne too early. After yesterday’s promising result, I restarted my GO tests and printed 21x4 targets. After leaving them overnight, I am now back to 6.15 this morning. I’m over this until Dana returns.
It’s not unusual to measure different results on a daily basis from an Epson printing system - in that the system is effected by the printer itself, temperature, and relative humidity, as well as the conditions reflected in the media itself which is also subject to temperature and humidity.
Can I ask if you are printing any images, or are you just running tests?
Jon, I understand variation. Is that what you are saying the issue is? In the absence of any indication of what constitutes normal variation, I have asked the question. I haven’t had any response from IJM since the 12th when Kelly asked a number of questions that I have answered. I have also asked a number of questions which are also unanswered.
I do actually print. As I said earlier in this thread, the only reason that I made the discovery is that I wanted to look at linearising for amounts of GO. I have also said that it is quite possible that I may not have noticed any problem if I had not done the measuring. Measuring is akin to letting the print speak for people of the digital age, IMHO. I would expect to be able to measure and get comparable results. This process would be a lot easier if norms were published.
I have also asked the, as yet unanswered, question of exactly what the maintenance requirement is for a 3880. How often does the ink need to be swapped between the two shade 1 inks, how often and how much printing needs to be done to ensure that no sedimentation occurs in the lines to the head.
Along the line it was suggested that a P2 system might be better for me. I would gladly switch to that if it were a complete system. Taking a look at the available curves is a very disappointing exercise.
Until I get some answers, I don’t know which way to go with my setup. I don’t know if I have a problem, and how to avoid it if I have.What I need is some very clear instructions that are missing from the available documentation on this site.
To be asked if I am actually printing after a pause of a week is rather condescending and certainly undeserved. It would’t pass as humour down here.
Dana and Kelly have had illnesses - and so they are not that available lately. I am filling in and will try and answer your questions.
In regards to maintenance of a large format printer. Pigment ink settles regardless of the manufacturer. You will be hard pressed to notice pigment settling in a color printer because you would have to decipher between millions of colors - certainly 100s of thousands of individual colors to determine how settling is affecting the colors. With monochromatic printing - pigment settling is immediately noticeable because a delta E difference of 2 would be noticeable to a b&w photographer. Certainly 5 would be. With this in mind - you would want to shake your carts every two weeks. You would want to print with a large format printer regularly so that ink does not remain in the ink lines for more than two weeks. Now I am talking about maintaining the highest standards - and I can not speak in “OK”, “Pretty Good”, “Not Bad”, “Not Too Bad”. So - from that perspective if ink has remained in the ink lines for two weeks - and you need to make the highest possible standard prints whether Epson color or Piezography BW - you would then want to freshen the ink in the ink lines with an INIT FILL or three Power Cleans after shaking the carts.
With that in mind - you can - and many customers come to us with permanently clogged Mk/PK ink exchangers when using OEM inks. So it is not indicative of Piezography - but of the printer itself… you do not want to run matte ink only for several months - then have to make a perfect glossy print. Were it my studio, I would run the two black ink changes once a week.
If you are not printing often enough to not allow ink to stagnate in the ink lines - then you may consider putting the printer into flush until you need to use it.
The printer is probably more technical than most things in your house, but I bet you a donut that you probably shake your milk or orange juice each day before drinking it. Something like that is necessary for a person to maintain a printer. It has to be out of habit - although our parents taught us to shake and smell milk before gulping it down. No one hands down advice on a printer.
Depending upon the lint in your paper, and dust in your printing room - you will need to thoroughly clean your printer’s capping and cleaning station at least every six months. You should replace your ink exchanger on an annual basis (according to Epson). Finally - the paper paths and rollers and pickup wheel should be dusted and cleaned every month or as needed.
What I have told you is - not for running a Piezography system - but for maintaining an Epson Pro printer as a best practice.
Thanks.That makes it a lot clearer. So clear, in fact that it makes me wonder whether I should buy an R2000 and sell the 3880. That would give me a printing solution that is easier to hibernate, has no ink lines and can produce print quality as good as any other printer. I go through periods of printing a lot and then not so much. It occurs to me that an R2000 would be a better fit for me.
The downside is cart size, no A2, and micro banding on the first inch. I could live with that. Am I missing something else?
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