Need a generic QTR profile for Canson sample pack with K7 Selenium ink

qtr
quadtonerip

#1

I have a new “Canson Infinity Discovery Pack” sampler with 14 different art papers in it.

Using the Epson 3880, is there some generic profile I can use to get an idea of how these papers perform?

I see no Canson papers at all under the 3880 listing in QTR. I’m looking for something sharper that I’m not getting with the Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 305 that is currently enroute to you for examination. Not that concerned with the tonal range for now.

Thanks.

Mack


#2

Hi Mack~

For testing the Canson rag/non-gloss papers, you can get good results using the Canson Rag Photographique curve, and for gloss papers you can use the Canson [U]Baryta[/U] Photographique curve. I have attached the Rag curve, and you can download the Baryta (and many other) glossy curve here: http://www.inkjetmall.com/tech/content.php?158-Piezography-K7-Additional-Curve-Resource

Best regards and happy printing~ Dana :slight_smile:

3800-SpecEd-CANragPto.quad.zip (2.71 KB)


#3

Thanks. Getting them now.

Mack


#4

Dana-

Canson Discovery Pack had the following 5 papers that the Canson website said to use “Photo Black” ink with.

• Platine Fiber Rag 310gsm - 100% rag
• Baryta Photographique 310gsm - 100% rag
• Photo High Gloss Premium RC 315gsm - RC
• PhotoGloss Premium RC 270gsm – RC
• PhotoSatin Premium RC 270gsm – RC

From the download site here, I used “3800-SEL-CanBarytaPhoto.quad” or the “Canson Baryta Photographique” for all of the above five.

Prints were very dark with that profile as I suspect they might be since 3 are RC papers, but the two rags were also dark too. I was looking for sharpness and not that concerned on tonal density. Some I could watch the black ink puddles dry in the blackest image areas. Sort of looks like one painted between masking tape and then pulls it off.

The Canson Platine and Baryta look promising to me out of the pack of 14. The other 10 “Matte Black Ink” papers seem too soft or blurry.

Ran out of G.O. so need to order more too. Printer literally drinks that stuff, but seems to make sense as if one were printing solid black images and then the photo black ink carts run dry after 12 prints. Needs to go on a G.O. diet.

Mack


#5

I am still waiting to receive your package of printed samples, and will know more about your output after reviewing those prints.

I have reviewed several 38xx glossy curves (that we have available for download on the page I directed you to above) to check their similarities/differences, and have attached the spread for you to see (they are different, but similar enough that I would expect you’d get pretty decent results for testing purposes):

I also compared a curve for Canson Photo Gloss Premium RC and Baryta Photographique papers (these are for the R3000 printer, so the ink limits/structure differs from the 38xx curves above- but show the comparison of curves for the two papers):


#6

Also, regarding your GO use- I assume you’re printing on letter size paper for testing, correct? If so, you should get a LOT more GO prints per cart!! In our testing with a R2880 printer (which uses carts that only hold about 15ml), we were able to get 16 letter size GO prints from a single cart. The 3800/3880 carts hold 70ml (plus what’s in the printer’s internal ink lines), so you should get more like [B]70[/B] letter size GO prints from a single cartridge… What settings are you using to print GO? Is your printer’s pressurization pump turning on frequently? Is this after you charged your printer with ink, or did you refill the carts since then? If you started with a full cart and only got 12 GO prints, please check your cartridge to make sure it’s not leaking from anywhere.

~Dana


#7

Thanks Dana for the info.

However, since I ran out of ink and GO, I placed another order today (June 6th) along with a separate 220ml bottle of G.O. since it seems to go 3 times as fast as the others. Not to happy with the system now. Maybe the printer is putting out too much ink, but no way to really tell. It only does the pump-up when I call for it to print, otherwise it is quiet like the other printer (Same model 3880). I don’t see any leaks present as I’ve had the carts out so many times for refills. The maintenance cart shows 14%, but it has taken a lot of power cleans too as I had a lot of yellow stain from the initial OEM ink charge left in the whites. I dunno.

From your charts above, that black line (Starts by the yellow.) I’m guessing is the G.O. (LLK) line? That’s the one that I think drank all my G.O. ink up. No doubt it might have taken a big hit since I had to do maybe 5-6 power cleans to get rid of that yellow prior to learning I could flush it out with just a yellow print. I see Qimage Ultimate is also allowing for individual ink cart flushings now as well (Aside: I’m using QTR, but have tried Qimage to see a sharpness increase, which it seems to do.).

I also sent Wells a JPG today when I queried if you got the envelope that shows the issue I have. The white type with my name is dark and almost black in the print where the LCD screen under it is white. (Excuse the slow shutter speed of 1/8 second since I needed the LCD screen alone and not with the flash bouncing off it.).

If USPS doesn’t get the images to you by next week (Big yellow legal (8.5x11) stamped envelope.), I guess I’ll have to go back to the commercial lab and have them run another set that shows their sharpness on Epson Luster than I cannot achieve with the K7 and my printer with the same images.

Really is frustrating! Okay, very expensive too.

I do know in this mess that the Canson Platine Rag and the extinct Ilford Prestige Gold Fiber printed with Photo Black seems sharpest so far. I did have to throttle back a lot on the curves I got off your site though. Seems Step-21 (Blackest) had ink sitting on it waiting to dry coming out of the printer. Seemed to throw off the i1 PhotoPro 2 head as well. Ink dried pretty quick though, maybe 1 minute or so. Still looks a bit carbon blackish sitting on the Canson RC papers though.

I also see from your charts above you are running around the 40-60% mark in ink density. I had to pull the Ilford GFS with Photo Black and GO way down to <30% and it’s beginning to look much better in tonal range, although my Cyan is always high for some reason. Maybe I got a flooder printer? I’ll attach my QTR curve for that paper which seems best so far in the mess, although still isn’t as sharp as the labs. Hopefully it got through as I also had to uninstall Adobe Flash again to get it to accept the JPG upload here. Ugh!

Mack



#8

Hi Mack,

I was just noticing your reply to Dana. Couple questions for you below in Bold.

You should not be adjusting Piezography K7 curves if you are using the system correctly. For example, you can not adjust our curve and then use QTR to re-linearize it. K7 curves are not compatible with QTR Curves Tool. We do not use QTR Curves Tool to make K7 curves. The K7 curves are made on a different profiling system and compiled so that the data point sets are compatible with the QTR driver. Adjusting K7 curves will break the linearization and you will not be able to get it back with any other modification to them. So it is important to figure out what is going wrong with your system rather than trying to adjust K7 curves to compensate for the setup or workflow issues you are having. If you modified the original files you will need to reinstall the original curves as we further trouble shoot you. [B]We can not trouble shoot you if you modify the system. Ok?
[/B] If you are using modified curves to print tests for us - please do not - and only use our curves for printing tests for us.

I wonder if you have read the Piezography printing manual that explains how to use the system or if you have instead read the QTR Manual. [B]Which manual are you following to the “T” - QTR or Piezography or are you making a hybrid workflow from both?[/B]

If you have to adjust our curves - that is the biggest indication to us that either something is wrong in how you have set up the K7 system or how you are using the K7 system. No GO is ever printed when ink is printed. GO is only accessible by using the GO curve and when printing an RGB pixel value of 255,255,255. The black line you are seeing is the total ink calculation from QTR CurveView.

We have not yet received your envelope with the prints and a copy of your digital image file - so we can not say what your issue is yet. When we compare your print to the actual digital file you sent and which you used to make the print, we will have a much better understanding of what is going on in your system. If the file you sent us indicates it should not have produced the print you sent us - we will print it correctly and advise you. If the file indicates to us that it should produce results like the print you sent us - we will advise you.

Either way - we will get to the bottom of the issue so that you can get results like everyone else! SO hang tight. But please let us know about which workflow you are using - and also please return your system to how we designed it so that we can further trouble shoot you.

Thanks,

Jon

PS It would have been more beneficial to both of us if you sent the actual image file rather than a photograph of how the image file was being displayed on the computer screen. We want to see the actual pixel tonal values in the file where you are seeing discrepancy. As it stands, if the type is actually white RGB 255,255,255 but is printing light gray - there is most definitely either a setup problem or a workflow issue. Perhaps if you wish to speed up things - send us a copy of the image file or put it up on an FTP site so we can evaluate prior to your mail arriving from one coast to the other! :slight_smile:


#9

Thanks Jon. Hopefully the envelope will show up this week via USPS.

I did send Wells a JPG showing the ink bleeding into the white on a print compared to the LCD screen under it. I suspect my printer is a heavy ink sprayer for some reason. Too much air pressure maybe?

Maybe why I ran out of GO too, although it has taken a lot of power cleanings as I had a lot of yellow hanging around in the whites.

I seem to need to pull your curves down a bit else the black ink pools on the surface once it comes out of the printer. The Canson Infinity Discovery pack with the RC papers were a pool of ink and look like it dried on top of the paper like brushed paint. You can see mine compared to ones Dana used. If I use yours, the ink dries off the surface maybe 2 minutes later.

Linearization isn’t an issue for me compared to the dark prints which may also explain why the white type at RGB 255,255,255 isn’t looking white due to bleeding. I’ll attach a linear curve of the Gold Fiber Silk I made. The 21 step wedge looks good too. The alteration was made in Open Office (Excel) to your file. Curves are in same spot on x-axis, just less ink on y-axis. Did notice a bit of difference in the G.O. as to altering the lineararity too.

I also discovered if I invert an image where black lettering (decreasing in size) on white paper is now white lettering decreasing in size on black, the inverted image degrades in sharpness. Probably the black ink is flooding the paper and covering the white. Black type on white is easy. Reverse is not so easy. That’s probably why my name/watermark is not sharp too as it is white on dark gray.

Anyway, I’ll wait for the second shipment of ink to arrive this week and play some more. Some papers seem sharper than the Hahn. Photo Rag I have. Canson Platine for one, and the Ilford GFS seems sharper too, but both used Photo Black over the Matte Black so don’t know there. Least I can see my name on those two.

Aside, I’m sort of laughing (not really!) as to once I get my first decent B&W print off the K7 it will be my first $1,000 print just in ink to get there. Maybe $450 in rolls of test papers too. Ugh! Probably first half of the K7 ink in the carts was blown out trying to get the lines cleaned of the Epson OEM ink. G.O. too maybe if that tank is also flushed in the cleaning cycle. Never could get a consistent linear curve until now after they’ve been flushed well, but I’m out too. Repeatability in the early stages with the Epson color ink still in the lines wasn’t good. Seems to be getting better.

Mack



#10

The prints arrived but not the file you used to print this file. While we can tell about the paper - we really should have your file that you used. Can you post to an FTP site for us to download? You can send the link to me at jon (at) inkjetmall (dot) com. We’ll print it and compare. Will tell us if its your system or workflow, or the actual file and the way it is prepared.

Thanks

Jon


#11

Jon, the 2-3 test images are a SD card and 440MB in size. It would take me week to upload them at my end. AT&T chokes around 15 KB upload here I think.

I might be able to send a DVD of them though. I need to check that and send it if I can get a DVD+R and mailer.

I did see some leftover files and folders on the SD card from the lab. I don’t know what they are? Some Mac file things maybe? A .fseventsd folder. Spotlight-V100 folder. .Trashes folder. . ._.Trashes. Some ._01.jpg. And one called ._02.jpg and neither of those two work in Windows 8.1 here. I don’t know what they did to get the images they/you now have other than it was a new Epson 9900 and Epson Luster paper I think. The Gray Gamma 2.20 they changed to a Dot Gain 20% is what I think they used and I left it alone, but images look better than mine and sharper too.

I think the ones I sent you were the Hahnemeuhle Photo Rag (Matte Black), and maybe a Canson Silver Rag (with Photo Black) and GO? Been through so much paper I’m losing track in this pile.

add…

Images sent on DVD off the card the commercial lab worked from. Probably see them next week or so via USPS again.

Mack


#12

Mack,

It is a little hard to follow your issues so I need to summarize and figure out what we are doing for you at this point.

  1. Initially you asked for help in operating QTR on Windows to get better “sharpness”.

  2. Then you tried printing a QImage prepared Print to File through QTR to improve sharpening which it did not when you believe it should have.

  3. Then you questioned whether you had a bad batch of paper.

  4. We were going to look at your prints because of a sharpness issue related to paper. And you sent these which we just received.

  5. Then you reported you had ink puddling on baryta paper and that your matte papers were soft and blurry.

  6. You sent a photograph of an image on your computer screen and the resulting print of the image to Wells. It suggests that what is white (RGB 255,255,255) is printing as a light gray -perhaps as dense as 20% judging by the photograph.

  7. You then reported that the GO had drained or run out of your printer prematurely, printing only 12 prints where 70 were expected.

  8. Then you reported having to modify K7 curves to reduce ink load.

[B]Between the ink puddling and the draining of an 80ml load of GO on 12 prints - I am thinking at this time that your issues are not related to paper or sharpness but rather a technical issue with your printer. I believe that the GO is being printed when it should not and that the curves being used are incorrect for K7 or are corrupted. The printing of GO during the printing of inks is ordinarily impossible with K7 curves and it would account for the softening and blurring of the image if it is printing especially in the quantity you are indicating.[/B]

Why this is happening could be the result of any of:

a) putting the inks in the wrong positions.
b) using Curves that were not produced by Piezography specifically for your printer model/family.
c) selecting more than one curve in QTR or using the adjustment sliders.
d) using Curves that have been modified.
e) corrupt QTR software or Piezography produced K7 curves could be triggering LLK head to print GO continuously.
f) using a QTR driver for a different printer model with your printer model.
g) mechanical failure of the print head.
h) some operation of QTR that is not recommended by the Piezography manual.

We can verify:
a) by your printing an sending a picture or scan of a Calibration Mode printing of inkseperation image. QTR prints that image automatically in Windows.
b) you have sent us the names of the K7 curves you are using. Please verify that you are using these in Curve 1 pull down prior to printing?
c) are you selecting more than one Curve when you print?
d) have you made any modification to these curves including Saving them even without your believing you have made a modification?
e) Always try a reinstall when in doubt!
f) Please verify your printer model and the name of the QTR pull down selection. (screen shot would be good)
g) possible that the LLK head has failed electronically and is just jetting fluid non-stop.
h) screen captures of your workflow from the Save As from Photoshop all the way through to the print button on QTR.


#13

Let me double check on the inks and their position. Luckily, I labeled all the carts prior to filling with a Brother P-Touch labeler. I’ll see where the GO one is at.

I suspect the GO has to be in the right position as I can see the clear border it leaves about 1/8" in from the sides, just like a bordered print out of the 3880, but I’ll double check. Might be more of a consumption of all the nozzle cleanings prior to my finding a way to address a nozzle check of one cart and not the whole thing. I don’t know if the LLK (GO) is also part of the cleaning cycle? I did double up on GO on the coming order though. I think the first half of the entire inkset became “flushing” and “charging the lines” fluids as the yellow was hanging around for a long time in the whites, but is now gone so that is good.

I’m using the newest Windows QTR version. No sliders within the lower part have been changed. Printer is Epson 3880 (Copy1) as two are on the hub. Only one curve at a time.

Off to ink position checking…

Mack


#14

I’ll try an attachment photo of the ink locations above and below the respective carts. I think they are right. The white label sure helps if I put them in the right spots. :confused:

I’m not hearing any excessive air pump running. Seems like the other 3880 to its right. No puddles inside or under it and the foam pad beneath the head travel area is pretty dry too. Haven’t printed borderless yet on it. I have had a few drops of ink on prints, but I think the head hit some BC Silverado paper that curls up from the sides and messed it up. Need to clean it off somehow and maybe the wiper pad too by the parking station.

I may try another install of QTR. I notice sometimes the pull-down with the papers is blank. If I close it and reopen it, they are back. Roy doesn’t seem to support the Windows one as well as Apple. Windows QTR looks sort of 1980’s.

Mack



#15

Thanks for posting the pic. That verifies a) The inks are in the correct position. But, we still do not know how you are using the system and b) - h) remain unknowns for us. You have not answered many previous questions - and it makes it very hard for us to guess. So, we are getting at a standstill in terms of providing you with a solution as a result.

The K7 system is not compatible with standard QTR workflow. Modifying it beyond our directions will result in unexpected results. We know that your LLK is printing out in just 12 prints rather than 70 and it is the obvious cause for your blurry prints, puddling ink, and lack of sharpness. Printing GO while printing ink will produce all of those results. It is impossible to print GO when the ink prints unless you have modified our system or your installation is corrupt.

I suggest that you reinstall the software and curves - and that you download and read the NEW Piezography Manual and follow it step-by-step.

We are not abandoning you - we just do not have enough information from you to help you further. If you would like to review the questions we have asked in the two cases that you have opened - it would be helpful to us for you to answer them all. We never ask for unnecessary information. This will help us to get you happily printing like everyone else! :slight_smile:


#16

Jon,

Ink showed up yesterday. I checked the tracking at midnight and it was already on my doorstep. Doh! Showed up a lot faster than B&H for some reason to west coast.

Anyway, all loaded up in ink this AM. Where is the “Canson or Mueseo Silver Rag” profile at on your site? I’ll give that one a shot as I seem to get a bit better sharpness off it than the Hahnemuehle Photo Rag which I’m beginning to suspect from playing with it in the color printer.

Mack


#17

Mack,

Are you reading my replies?


#18

[QUOTE=joncone;4162]Mack,

Are you reading my replies?[/QUOTE]

Yes. After all, I sent the ink/printer layout photo. Ran out of ink too, so nothing in the meantime. That first run of ink carts was just a costly wash of the old ink it appears. First few QTR prints and last ones made show a different 21 step reading so it had to be residual Epson ink in the lines/head messing with me to a point.

For now, I just need the “Canson Silver Rag” 3880 profile to try out and see if it is darker as well using your profile. That and if sharpness improves over the Hahn. Photo Rag too which I am suspect of.

That’s all.

Yes, I read the manual. Yes, I used your (dark) profiles. Etc. Wouldn’t have made them otherwise. Only reason I pulled Qimage into the mix was to see if it sharpened better than QTR regardless of ink - and it does (QTR nor PS CS6 doesn’t seem to match Qimage for print sharpness, imho.). I am not using Qimage as the print maker for the K7, just QTR there. Nor have I ventured into the QTR stuff for non-K7 inks either as it seems mostly for color ink.

Haven’t heard anything as to why my images sent are less sharp than the labs either which is my issue. I don’t care about the tonality for now as they are too soft for whatever reason. The ones sent were with your profiles, albeit darker and less sharp. Ink bleed? Bad paper? Haven’t heard anything other than maybe GO contamination. I can see the nozzle lines in the head alignment and have them pretty much addressed to smooth and no lines showing as per the Epson manual (Pretty close to #5 all the way through the head alignment.). With that, I will assume the head is good. Nozzle checks look good (GO is faint, but I can see it at oblique angle on glossy.).

I need to go see Paul Roark’s B&W display in the gallery near Solvang and see what his images look like for sharpness. Yes, it’s subjective, but the stuff I sent you (QTR & K7) look very soft compared to the lab’s Epson 9900 ABW and Dot Gain 20% or whatever they use.

Mack


#19

The prints that you sent us definitely exhibit signs of bleeding and ink blurring and that would be indicative of GO printing during the K7 ink print. GO is not applied during any matte printing when using our K7 curves. It is not applied during any glossy printing when using our K7 curves. It is only applied using the GO curve which is an overprint process (second printing). Because you indicated that you produced 12 GO prints and the cartridge was empty - and you should have been able to produce 70 - we believe at this point that you have a corrupted installation of QuadTone RIP or/and that the K7 curves have been modified. I tried to explain this to you in Bold Type here:
http://www.inkjetmall.com/tech/showthread.php?717-Need-a-generic-QTR-profile-for-Canson-sample-pack-with-K7-Selenium-ink&p=4143&viewfull=1#post4143 which is why I asked if you were reading my replies. That is WHY your images are less sharp. You have massive bleed and blur due to the LLK position printing when it should normally be impossible for it to print.

The possible causes I listed as a-h should individually be verified by you. If you eliminate them all - then the best option would be to reinstall the software and curves in the case they were corrupted. If that does not remedy - then you may have some sort of mechanical or electrical failure in which the LLK cart is printing massive amounts of GO during normal print operations. Something outside of QTR is causing that print head to fire during a print request. Because it is clear you can’t see it - you just see the “puddling” that you reported as it over-dilutes the inks, and you can see the bleeding of the inks in contrasty areas, and of course the blurring of ink where it is running into your signature (very obvious) - all indicative of what happens when GO is applied to matte surfaces. You believe it is due to paper. Because the GO prematurely emptied - we believe it is not due to the paper.

Weird situation to be sure. If you send us the image file we will gladly produce a print for you to confirm sharpness of the system and the correct results to expect with a correct installation and workflow. You can FedEX to us (lot less expensive than wasting more ink). We do not believe your system is correctly installed or functioning at this time and we do not suggest you continue to print until you have remedied this technical issue (or at least not on expensive paper). Wait until you see a correctly printed example of your work before blasting through more materials.

We do not have the curves you requested but we would gladly produce a custom for you when you are able to print a target without bleed and blur.

Please send us your image file.


#20

Jon, image files were sent on a DVD disk last Monday evening. Might be there early next week by USPS. There are some residual Apple Mac leftover files on it from the commercial lab. I’m on Windows so they aren’t known to me as to what they are, but I left them on the disk too.

I have noticed, since I refilled the carts with the new refills yesterday, that the images are appearing sharper for some reason. Same image as the one I’ve sent you too as I use it for everything so far. My name is beginning to show up as white too. Not as good as the same model color printer next to the K7 printer, but better than the ones I sent you. Might be some issue with remaining LLK ink in the GO line or head? I went through a lot of nozzle flushes to get rid of that yellow, probably too many along with a lot of GO too. Maybe the Epson LLK ink was still in there mixing with the GO?

Aside, I also noticed that the Photo Black in the 21 step wedge (Step 21) is sort of a dull black where all others are glossy (this is on glossy RC paper). I’m guessing the Photo Black needs GO to complete the gloss on RC or glossy papers? Almost looks lime Matte Black ink on step 21, but I doubt if I made that PK<>MK ink mix up?

I’m looking at all the profiles I’ve used and don’t see any numbers under the LLK in the quad files. All show zeros under the LLK, except for the first 30000 entry in the GO.quad file. The matte shouldn’t be using LLK or GO as I understand this. Don’t know where the LLK is creeping in. I’ll try reloading the software too. It does sometimes act up under Windows 8 and the pull-down menus become all white and nothing in them. If I shut it down and reopen QTR, the profiles show back up in the pull down. Wish Roy would get the software for Windows updated.

The tonality of the selenium ink does look good though. Just wish the stuff was sharper. Might be Hahn. Photo Rag too. I need to try using some of it in the color printer and see. Some say the Canson Platine Rag (Baryta?) might be the best of the lot for this K7 sharpness problem. I don’t know. Others suggested setting platen to Wide in the Maintenance window on the printer (Did that.) and paper thickness was at 4 I believe. Might try a head alignment again at those settings if I can see the K7 ink over the color used in the initial setup.

Mack